Bringing Remote Reality to motorsports racing with Cartier Brown

Some Questions Asked:

• Are you saying that the average person or spectator will be able to somehow remotely jump into the driver’s seat? (7:24)
• Without that human element of risk, why do you think people are going to want to watch this? (10:26)
• What would be some of the crazy things that you think you might see in one of these races? (11:41)
• How fast does it go? (14:35)
• What do you think are the big technical engineering hurdles that you’re facing as you try and make this remote reality racing reality? (23:16)
• What exactly is the digital twin, and how’s it going to help you design this? (32:26)

What You’ll Learn in this Episode:

• What remote reality is and how Avicar is leveraging it (2:22)
• What Avicar means by “it is real because it feels real” (3:05)
• About the driver experience for Avicar vehicles (15:45)
• About Avicar’s ‘angel key’ (16:53)
• How Avicar plans to replicate the ‘feel’ of driving a race car (30:01)
• The demographic of drivers Avicar are looking to recruit (36:27)
• About Cartier’s work in the music and movie business (39:24)
• What the scouting process for Avicar drivers will look like (46:50)

Connect with Cartier Brown/Avicar: 

• Instagram
• Website
• LinkedIn (Avicar)
• LinkedIn (Cartier Brown)
• Email

Connect with Ed Bernardon:

• LinkedIn
• Future Car: Driving a Lifestyle Revolution
• Motorsports is speeding the way to safer urban mobility
• Siemens Digital Industries Software

[00:00] Ed Bernardon: We’ve heard a lot these days about virtual reality and augmented reality, but have you heard about remote reality where you virtually control something physical in the real, non-virtual world? And what if this physical thing that you’re controlling is actually a million-dollar high-speed electric car in race series where the drivers could be located anywhere in the world? Well, that’s exactly what the startup Avicar is going to do. And today we have with us the founder and CEO of Avicar, Cartier Brown. And he’s taking what he’s learned in a career in the movies and in music, and he’s creating a remote racing series for electric cars. And he’s going to tell us all about remote reality. He’s going to tell us how components of everything from the car to the track are being engineered and all the excitement that is going to be building up around remote racing of electric cars. Cartier Brown, welcome to The Future Car Podcast.

[01:12] Cartier Brown: Thank you. Thanks for having me. I appreciate it.

[01:15] Ed Bernardon: Well, Cartier, let’s start at the top. So the vision behind Avicar is to allow people to race these electric cars remotely. They could be located all over the world, unlimited distance between them and the actual racetrack and the cars themselves. All this is achieved through remote reality. So maybe explain to us what remote reality is and how Avicar is taking advantage of it.

[01:43] Cartier Brown: Absolutely, would love to. So similar to virtual reality and augmented reality, remote reality is a little different when it comes to the immersive experience. What it allows you to do is experience other environments in the real world, in real time. So you can actually experience something in a completely other area of the earth and experience it in real-time. So what’s different about virtual reality and augmented reality is that it’s digital graphics intensive. Remote reality relies on live-stream cameras. So everything is real. You’re actually moving physical objects in the real world. And you’re essentially in two places at the same time. And there’s a whole plethora of things that come with this type of technology that we’re really excited about.

[02:40] Ed Bernardon: So we’re all familiar with Formula One, NASCAR, IndyCar traditional racing, then there’s eSports, which is really a video game. But maybe it’s a cross between the two. And one of the things you say about it is you’re doubling down because it feels real. Because virtual reality and video games try to make it feel real. But you say it feels real because it is real. What does this mean in the context of remote reality racing and remote reality technology?

[03:13] Cartier Brown: So my background comes from the content video production space. I’ve been in that space for over a decade. So when it comes down to content and sports programming more so in particular, one thing we gotta realize when we looked at the market was that the younger generation wasn’t watching sports as much as the generation that preceded it. And we realized that it came down to a few points on why that was the case. So when they interviewed Gen Z and millennials, they came to a few common denominators of why that was the case. One of the reasons was that events that are 90 minutes, two hours, maybe sometimes even longer, it’s really tough for some of these younger guys who just want to move around and keep things moving. Another aspect, which we found really interesting, was the interactivity with the sports. And because there was no interactivity on what they were watching, many of them graduated to social media, where it’s much more interactive than a passive two-hour program. So it put us on this rabbit hole of trying to push the content a little further and make it more interactive instead of just witnessing a sports game or sitting on the sideline and experiencing that for yourself, which is really interesting, by the way. Meta is going a cool job, and there are a few other companies doing that. But what if you can actually be in the sports game itself and be able to control that and the outcome of that, and the outcome of that affects the real world? That was very, very interesting too. It was because we realized that there is a new dynamic when it came down to sports competition. 

[05:06] Cartier Brown: So, remote reality, we came at this essentially as a sports programming content perspective, because that interactivity is something that would just connect to a younger demographic. And F1 is doing a great job, phenomenal job, and NASCAR, especially with Netflix, how it really spiked that interest among our early consumers. But just the broad strokes, when you look at the numbers, it’s quite interesting. So, for us, we really want to take this slightly different approach than what Formula One is doing very successfully and NASCAR and Formula E. But we wanted a motorsports league that you can participate from your living room, you could participate from your couch. And that was something that no motorsport league is doing right now. So that was the journey we went on. Aside from the content aspect, we realized on an engineering and technology aspect, we were opening up a plethora of opportunities. And as we were starting to speak to some of our mechanical engineers — these guys are really bright colleagues we’re fortunate to work with — we were just fascinated by the opportunities that this technology can allow in motorsports. So we just went down this rabbit hole to change not just sports programming but technology and a disruptive, immersive experience that was slightly different from virtual reality and augmented reality.

[06:39] Ed Bernardon: So one of the key things you just talked about was the ability to participate. So if you think about Formula One, you’ve got 20 drivers, and there’s a limited number of drivers in NASCAR, IndyCar, Formula One, and rally, whatever it might be. Are you saying that there’s a way here where you can open that up to more people somehow? And I do want to talk about your car in a second because this isn’t like a little toy car that’s going around on the track like we typically think of remote control cars. But are you saying that the average person or spectator will be able to somehow remotely jump into the driver’s seat?

[07:13] Cartier Brown: Right now, we are approaching it more in an elite fashion. So this private league, we’re really scouting for the best drivers to really push the sport and show the capabilities of what you can do with this technology. But we are opening it up almost similar to an American Idol aspect, where we could find a global search of the best drivers from different parts of the globe to see who’s the best at managing this beast. That’s the ultimate goal here. So, sometimes when you look at — and I love Formula One and everything like that, but sometimes it does feel a little disconnected. There are the pros, I don’t even know how to get involved, I don’t know what the steps to take to even get in there. But with remote reality, you can actually physically control what you’re watching. And that’s something that’s miles ahead of what’s going on in just content programming, and the technology allows us to do that.

[08:13] Ed Bernardon: Well, you said something really interesting about American Idol. Sometimes one of the most interesting parts of American Idol is the early stages when you get people in that are terrible singers. I guess being a terrible singer is one thing, but being a terrible driver of a very expensive car is something else. Do you envision something like this where somehow safely you protect your expensive cars while people are jumping in and giving it a whirl?

[08:41] Cartier Brown: Great question. I’m happy you touched on that. That’s one of the reasons why we are starting with the more advanced drivers first and then expanding our program. What we’re finding right now in our research lab phase is during our private beta testing, we’re testing with different drivers from all different professions, backgrounds, and regions. And right now, the ones who we’re very closely working with come from eSports. And they’re looking to take it up a notch, they’re looking for a game to become real. We are finding some really good potential drivers, obviously, from that space, and even just real street car drivers who drive in New York City, LA, or Miami, they’re taking a liking to what we’re doing here. So, we’re just in the process of research and just gaining data from this new technology really. And it’s not limited, we’re not limited to two different walks of life, I’ll tell you that.

[09:48] Ed Bernardon: When I mention remote racing to people, they say, “Oh, well, without a driver sitting in the car and the chance that there might be a wreck, or the risk of human life. That’s where, to some extent, excitement comes in, that’s going away.” Without that human element of risk, why do you think people are going to want to watch this?

[10:14] Cartier Brown: Well, in fact, remote reality has a ton of risk because it’s not completely autonomous vehicles that would have 100% predictability of exactly driving around the course with precision and zero chance of a crash. Remote reality still has that human touch, and that’s what’s important. It’s really the symbiotic relationship between human and machine where it’s not just 100% machines doing all the work. So there is still that element of anxiety as far as who’s going to come first, who’s going to win, and who may crash. But it’s also taking into account that you can now push the engineering of the vehicles to do things that haven’t been seen before. And that’s really what keeps us up at night; the idea that we could actually do things instead of having a car nicely go around a track or copy F1 or copy NASCAR, we can really push the limits of the courses to go more vertical and do things that haven’t been caught on camera yet. And that’s really what we think it’s to balance out some of that conversation.

[11:28] Ed Bernardon: So what would be some of the crazy things that you think you might see in one of these races? You mentioned super bank turns. You’re not thinking like Robo wars or anything like that where these cars might shoot at each other?

[11:41] Cartier Brown: No, not for this one. We’d like to keep that prestige, upper-echelon aspect to the sport. But there’s no “shoot ’em up” games. 

[11:54] Ed Bernardon: No obstacles are gonna pop up in the middle of the track or anything like that. It’s not Mario Kart.

[12:01] Cartier Brown: Yeah, Mario Kart is great at what they do and I love Mario Kart. But I think having vehicles that can push some of the physics, the gravity-defying elements that haven’t been seen, where cars can go on 90-degree angles and drive on walls based off with a bank, how they hit it, and how the g-force doesn’t come at the side, it comes directly on top of the car so we can really keep that momentum. These are the things that our team is working really hard on and drilling into physics. And obviously, going into digital twin technology, it’s a huge help for what we’re doing here as well.

[12:38] Ed Bernardon: Tell us a little bit about the car. So there’s no driver, so you don’t need seats, doors, airbags, or restraint systems. Describe the car, how big? How fast? What does it look like?

[12:51] Cartier Brown: I think it’s one of those “I could show you better than I could tell you.” And hopefully, someone could look up the Avicar Gen Zero model because it’s hard to describe, but we think it looks really cool.

[13:02] Ed Bernardon: Well, you have an Italian design firm actually working on it. We know the Italians design great cars.

[13:07] Cartier Brown: Yes, they do. When you want the best, you’ve got to work with the best. So we reached out to iconic car designers in Italy. [13:17 inaudible] has done remarkable designs for Alfa Romeo, Aston Martin, and they’ve done some designs for Ferrari. I mean, you name it. These guys are like the top of their class. These are like real James Bond style cars. So we just felt they would understand the aesthetic and what we’re looking to achieve here.

[13:41] Ed Bernardon: How did you explain that to them? When you sat down with [13:43 inaudible], what did you say? Because this is something that’s never been designed before. “I don’t want it to look like a VW bug, but maybe look like a Dino Ferrari.” I don’t know, how do you do that?

[13:55] Cartier Brown: I wish you were in the room the first time they were hit with this concept. They stood there for a little bit, and then it was just like they understood the evolution of the two-seater, the cross-country competition, the NASCAR models, the evolution to the one-seater, the single-seater, which was Formula One. And then now this new evolution, which is the zero-seater, where the driver’s seat is removed from the vehicle. They caught on and they loved it, and they were hit with a challenge to create what embodied a little bit of a progressive, modern take on what motorsports is today.

[14:37] Ed Bernardon: How fast does it go?

[14:39] Cartier Brown: Well, we’re in Research Lab mode right now, so this is all R&D. The vehicles can go 200 miles per hour right now, but once we can actually start testing in the simulation environment, understanding exactly the optimal speeds between routers, independent from the car speed, all of these factors play into the lead. So, that’s why it’s so beneficial for us to do a lot of the simulation testing in digital twin technology. Because for us, the speed of the car independently is somewhat irrelevant. Even if we made the car 300 or 400 miles per hour, it’s really about the connection and the control between the driver and the car, which may or may not be thousands of miles apart.

[15:28] Ed Bernardon: What about some of the features? It’s an electric car, there are all sorts of cameras and 360-degree cameras that are in it. You’re talking about hand-tracking controls. What would the experience be like on the driver side, and what’s actually inside your Gen Zero car?

[15:47] Cartier Brown: So the experience is you put on a headset and you’re almost transported to that vehicle. And that’s what it feels like. It feels like you are inside the car and you’re operating the car as if you were right there. So that’s very interesting. And that’s why we’re using these tools in a slightly different way than what’s traditionally being used right now. So, they say, “The shortest distance between two points is not a straight line, it’s zero.” And it’s when you fold the papers together– 

[16:26] Ed Bernardon: They become one. 

[16:27] Cartier Brown: Yes, you’re changing a space a little bit. And this is kind of our take on just teleportation and the ability to control something thousands of miles away but in real-time and a split second, I think that’s really fascinating for us.

[16:45] Ed Bernardon: You have this thing called the angel key, and there are two different levels to the angel key. What exactly is that? I mean, it’s obviously not a physical key to put in the car. What’s the purpose of the angel key?

[17:01] Cartier Brown: It’s not a physical key to put in a car, but what it is, is a physical key that connects to your headset device or your console to authenticate the ownership of the car. So you have the key inside your home, and it’s not just a functional item that authenticates that the car belongs to you and you’re qualified and authorized to drive this vehicle, but it’s also a physical reminder. And it’s a reminder that it’s not just a video game and that the stakes are higher, and you’re actually controlling a physical object.

[17:01] Ed Bernardon: So there are two levels to this key. There’s the ride-sharing and then there’s the team franchise. And there are thousands of these ride-sharing ones, but only 11 of the team franchise. So if we go back to the American Idol kind of thing, I guess there are potentially 4,000 drivers, but ultimately, the finals is going to be 11. Is that how it works?

[18:04] Cartier Brown: Exactly. It’s a private league, so it’s not open to everybody. We’re keeping it very exclusive and looking to find, of these thousands, the best drivers that we could possibly have that can control these. So it’s kind of like a more closed-off sport right now. It’s very exclusive. And we’re going to grow as we start collecting more data and learning and speaking with more drivers and fine-tuning the product. We think we’re going to be able to grow this sports league out on a more global level. But right now, it’s very privatized, very exclusive, just trying to really work with the best drivers for these cars.

[18:52] Ed Bernardon: The track you’re working on, maybe you could describe that a little bit. Is it an oval? Is it a road course? What’s the size of the track? And it is a “smart track.” What’s the advantage of a smart track over a non-smart track? How does it make things more exciting?

[19:11] Cartier Brown: Everybody knows what a normal race track looks like. And for us, the reason why we need a smart track is because the track can communicate with the vehicle. And that’s very important for us and the sport. There’s a lot of data that we get to learn from that. And also, preventative measures from damaging vehicles, where certain steps can be taken. And we can predict the probability of certain damage and make certain steps that can reduce it, not eliminate it, but drastically reduce it compared to not having it at all. So that’s what that is. As of right now, we’ve been testing on open fields where beginners can just get accustomed to it and get a sense of what it’s like to operate it and not have any obstacles in the way. We try to hold their hand and build up with them until they get really comfortable and really skilled at it. And then for the more advanced ones, we take them to the track and they get to understand what that feels like. But luckily for us, we have got to test on preexisting velodromes, and that’s been very helpful for us.

[20:30] Ed Bernardon: Like a bicycle track, because those are really banked on the oval part, I guess you could say, on the turn.

[20:36] Cartier Brown: Yeah, it’s almost practice that we like to call it. It helps us learn from the next stage, which is more of a vertical wall. But right now, we’ve been testing on velodromes. They’re very convenient for the vehicles. Because there’s nobody inside the vehicles, the size doesn’t have to be the same size scale as if a human driver is inside one. The only thing that’s on board is live stream cameras. So because we want to keep things efficient, because we’re working with the Italian designers and things like that, we really want to be smart about space, speed, and weight. And we realized there was a lot of wasted space if we were to match the same size, let’s say, as a Formula One. So we went with a more conducive vehicle that allowed us to test on a velodrome and then allows us to take it to more customized tracks later down the year. So that’s the process that we’ve been going through right now.

[21:38] Ed Bernardon: So this is a picture you’re painting. So you’ve got this electric car for remote control. And what’s the size of the car relative to a Formula One car, say, or NASCAR?

[21:49] Cartier Brown: It’s 79 inches in length, and 44.5 inches in width. Roughly about a one-and-a-half-scale model sports car with only live stream cameras on board and a pretty cool, distinctive blue brake light at the back. 

[22:10] Ed Bernardon: So, you’ve got a half-size, roughly half-scale car. What are the rough costs of one of these cars would you say? When you’re controlling this thing, how much money is on the other end of the line, just in case you have an accident?

[22:24] Cartier Brown: Well, there’s a lot that goes into that. We’re working with a team that specializes in this sort of thing in the insurance aspect and certain parts that are put aside for a season, whether that’s the suspension or bodywork parts or the spare parts. And that’s just taking a chapter out of F1 or in any kind of racing. 

[22:51] Ed Bernardon: But what was the rough cost of one of the cars? 

[22:54] Cartier Brown: Ask us that at the end of the summer, I’ll give you a more accurate number. But as of right now, we look at the team franchise cost of 1.1 million to be pretty reasonable compared to the fact that there are only 11. And sports teams is a pretty hot commodity. And we think what we’re doing with motorsports in general and just the limited amount of sports teams, we think we can create a lot of value there that we think we are starting to building blocks of what we see building over the next several years.

[23:31] Ed Bernardon: You could probably say that the cost or the value of a high-end sports car or something like that. So you’ve got these half-sized high-end sports cars racing around on a velodrome-sized track, but the track is unlike a velodrome track because it’s smart, it’s going to be communicating with the cars, remotely controlled. Now, you’re doing this for the first time, no one else has ever done this. So if you took a step back, what do you think are the big technical engineering hurdles that you’re facing as you try and make this remote reality racing reality? What are the big problems you’re seeing?

[24:12] Cartier Brown: Our team is working really hard on latency. So latency is a big thing with our sport compared to probably any other sport in existence. 

[24:21] Ed Bernardon: And just so everyone understands, the latency would be if I’m sitting in my living room and I tell the car, “Do A,” it does it in X amount of time, and I see that it did it. When we see something in the real world, we certainly perceive it as being immediate. But if you’re racing, I would think latency would be very, very important. You want it to be as close to zero as you can get.

[24:45] Cartier Brown: Absolutely. 

[24:46] Ed Bernardon: How do you do that?

[24:48] Cartier Brown: Working with some really bright people. We start there. Our guys come from MIT, they work with NASA, and they’re really experts in the whole spatial environment. So, for us, we’re tackling that problem head-on and working on special codecs. We’re working with some other experts in this space. Compression is a huge thing. And like I said, we are in the R&D phase, and Wi-Fi is increasing every year. Speeds are increasing every year. And it’s never going to go backward. So we went from 4G to 5G, it’s going to go to 6G, it’s never going to go back. So you’re able to build certain functionality with that trend in mind. Obviously, you get really reduced latency when you’re using a PC headset compared to, let’s say, a satellite in the middle of a rural area. However, the speeds right now are phenomenal even what Starlink is doing. The ability to drive an Avicar off a satellite is pretty cool, I’ll say that.

[26:03] Ed Bernardon: Have you actually done that already? Actually driven one?

[26:05] Cartier Brown: Yeah, that’s all we’re doing right now. We’re in a testing R&D phase and we’re slowly bringing in the community to see what’s under the hood and grow with us. So we want them to see. We’re gonna start releasing a lot of the trials and tribulations and some of the drivers and personalities we’re working with. And let people really understand that this is almost like a rocket launch more so than a traditional video game.

[26:37] Ed Bernardon: One of the things I still remember from engineering school is when you’re going 60 miles an hour, it’s 88 feet per second. Let’s call it 150 miles per hour just to make calculations a little bit easy. So, you’re roughly going to be 150 feet per second or something like that. It’s up there, it’s getting up there. So if we say a tenth of a second, that’s 15 feet. A lot can happen in 15 feet. So if your latency is just a tenth of a second or even a hundredth of a second, which would be a foot and a half, I can see, like you say, you’re controlling the car and you say, “Hey, I want to pass this car, or I want to get around this car, or I want to move to the inside or the outside of the track.” Tenth of a second or a hundredth might be okay, but now you’re doing that pass and you could be inches away from another car that’s also doing 100 miles per hour or whatever it is. How do you perceive that you’re going to be able to handle those types of conditions where you need split-second decisions and evasive maneuvers, whatever you want to call it? Can the latency handle that? Or do you have a system that will help the remote driver make sure they can get through that evasive maneuver easily?

[27:54] Cartier Brown: Yes, to your point, exactly. We call it Guardian Angel AI, and what it does is it helps assist some of these circumstances which you’ve just mentioned. There are certain frames where there will be gaps and certain signals that may not reach because of the speed of the car, just sheer speed. So for this, we’re working with AI to help fill in some of those gaps and to give us a much more helpful, predictable path for the vehicles. So that when the signals come back, the driver is back in like nothing ever changed, nothing ever happened. And we are right now in that process of testing how much is too much, and how much we should scale it back. And based off the skill level of the driver, that’s when we can kind of scale it back a bit, kind of like training wheels. And for the more beginner-style drivers, who are feeling it out for the first time, we use a certain amount of AI until we scale it back. And also, there are operations being handled on the vehicles themselves that are independent of the signal with the servers. So there are a few things happening in concert with one another to make the experience enjoyable and fun to watch.

[29:21] Ed Bernardon: I would imagine that during these types of maneuvers, technologies that are used on autonomous cars, like radar or Lidars, in conjunction with the cameras, and using the AI to take information from all of these sensors in a way that, I liked what you said is, you don’t really want to disturb the feeling that the driver’s getting that they have control. But it’s like you said, this AI-driven Guardian Angel is getting, shall we say, information from these different types of sensors. It’s coming in, it’s coming out, it’s coming in all depending on where the car is on the track, how got close it is to the other car, maybe that’s where the smart track comes in, that’s also going to give you information. All this has to be taken in together and understood by the AI-driven Guardian Angel to keep the car safe right when they’re on the edge.

[30:15] Cartier Brown: Yeah, there’s a lot of triangular movement that’s happening that’s being recorded. There must be three or four actual pillars that are working in conjunction for this. Because the ultimate goal is for us to make these the fastest competitive vehicles, sports cars on Earth. And we know that’s a bold statement and we don’t think we’re going to get there tomorrow. But that is our North Star and that’s what we’re working towards. We’re working with a lot of bright people and pushing for that goal. So, for us, this is an entire learning and data collection phase, where we’re looking at what’s the optimal car speed at 30 miles per hour, at 50 miles per hour, at 80, at 100, and past 100. And learning how all of these different technologies work in sync with one another. So we do have our work cut out for us and we’re nowhere near that platonic ideal, but I’m very happy about the progress we’ve made thus far. We’ve had people driving across the country, from Vegas to New York, in a split second. I mean, the latency speeds don’t even feel. It’s very, very slight, and we’re almost going to get it down to you don’t even feel it at all. Right now, people don’t feel that at all. But when you start to get to Europe and they’re driving the car here, or you start to get to Japan and they’re driving the car here, then you start dealing with certain latency ranges that the AI has to do a little too much work on. But we’re learning all of these things where it’s like, “Okay, maybe the most optimal thing is to put a track in Europe or a track in Japan, and then find collectively find the best drivers and shoot content.” Because as you know, we’re in the content world as well and we’ve done billions of views with some of the stuff we’ve worked on. So this is putting something else really cool and exciting in front of the lens.

[32:23] Ed Bernardon: Well, you use the word “feel,” “You want to feel that it’s real.” And one of the things when you’re driving a race car is the feel. As you’re going through the turn, you’re feeling those g-forces. Are the tires about to break loose or not? That’s how you determine how much more you might want to turn the wheel. Is there a plan to have some sort of tactile feedback, some sort of a true physical push on you, as centrifugal force, as gravity, whatever is working on the car? How are you going to do that?

[32:54] Cartier Brown: For us, the best way where we feel we can communicate that feeling at that distance is haptic suits.

[33:02] Ed Bernardon: Haptic suit. Well, I like that. So it’s going to push on you?

[33:06] Cartier Brown: Yeah, a little bit of compression, I think, is really cool when you’re pushing it up a notch. If you hit a wall or you hit a car, obviously, you feel that. And then obviously, if you use it in conjunction with a headset, that whole experience feels like you’re in the race track itself.

[33:24] Ed Bernardon: So is that like a virtual headset and a suit that somehow pushes on you? Is that what you’re describing?

[33:30] Cartier Brown: Yeah, but there are many ways you can experience Avicar. It doesn’t have to be just that. But there are ways where, whether it’s a steering wheel that’s locked in position and it’s stationary. Right now, we’re talking to so many different drivers that have their own preferences on how they want to really experience the car. And the haptic suit and the immersive headset is something that’s kind of been at the top of the list. But there’s also been drivers who just want to play it off their Xbox controller or they just want to use the joysticks, that’s what the Oculus, the Wii, or the PSVR 2. 

[34:10] Ed Bernardon: Well, that’s actually pretty interesting. You might have some drivers that want the haptic suit. Maybe those might be drivers that have actually driven real physical cars, and they rely on that. Then you might have eSports people say, “I don’t really care about that. Just give me the joystick. I’ll beat those guys.” Do you envision that there might be different systems at the control side? Not everyone’s going to want to use the haptic suit.

[34:33] Cartier Brown: Right now we’re just listening to the drivers. It’s not a one-fits-all size. So we’re still looking to just expand our beta program right now before the season starts and just speak to as many potential drivers as possible right now. So, we’ll see. And then, also, being able to be in a position where if there isn’t something on the market that’s really giving them that oomph that they need, maybe stepping in and exploring what they would want to help amplify that experience.

[35:07] Ed Bernardon: We’ve talked about a lot of different things. So you’ve got this electric car. It’s got sensors on it. You’ve got a Smart Track. You’ve got latency, remote controlling, tactile feedback, and tactile suits. It’s the first time that has ever been done. You mentioned it earlier, you’re working with Siemens, and trying to take digital twin technology to help you engineer this. So in this application, maybe explain what exactly is the digital twin. And how’s it going to help you design this? Because it’s more than a car, it’s a car, it’s a track, it’s remote systems. How does the digital twin come in to help you make this a reality sooner rather than later?

[35:51] Cartier Brown: So, digital twin is remarkable technology, and it really helps us go many steps into the future in a quicker timeframe. So that’s very beneficial for us. A lot of the theories and assumptions that we can predict with the physics and our engineers, we get to really test them in a simulated environment, and that does a lot for us. That helps us reduce costs without having to try something, test it, crash it, something breaks, and trying to reverse engineer things. When we get to put them in a digital twin environment and we can learn from that, that just helps catapult the manufacturing process just so much quicker and more streamlined. So as we said, this isn’t we’re making thousands of cars for this league right now, this is 11 high-performance vehicles that we need the best quality and the best engineering for. So the digital twin really helps us push it and stress test a lot of these theories first before making it manufacturing and putting it on the track.

[37:08] Ed Bernardon: So, as you say “stress test,” which means you want to get as close to the actual operating conditions so that you can see if your design is going to be successful. Unlike a video game, you have to have the physics model properly, the acceleration, the decelerations, how well the tires stick to the track, how well the tires stick to the track as they wear out, and the aerodynamics as one car is trying to pass another one. It’s almost like taking a video game and making it real and actually using it to design the vehicle upfront. I mean, it’s one thing to style it, but what’s going on inside of it? What’s the nature of the tires? What’s the nature of the acceleration and deceleration? How long will the batteries last? You have to figure all that out in this digital twin before you even make anything physical. Sounds like that’s really the key to getting this up and going quickly.

[38:07] Cartier Brown: Absolutely. 

[38:08] Ed Bernardon: So you have a digital twin, it’s accurate in terms of how it represents the physical world, you use it for design, but you could also use it for training. Will it also be used as part of the actual control system, ultimately? There are lots of levels to the digital twin, it sounds like, in terms of how it can be used.

[38:29] Cartier Brown: Yeah, because when it comes down to the game publishers, we’re not necessarily looking to compete with them. But we are looking to create a true simulation training tool that allows us to find and filter out the best drivers. So it has a real functionality purpose for Avicar, and at the same time being exciting and entertaining. But it really is function before form on this. The ability to create real-world physics and to place it into the simulation training game allows that behavior of controlling the vehicle to be almost seamless as if it’s almost identical. And that’s what we want because, for us, we’re really looking to find the top percentage of drivers who really excel in the simulation training. And that could be considered for the draft. And that’s when we get things really exciting and get into the season and the top elite drivers. So, simulation training is very important to us because it just helps us expand our search.

[39:45] Ed Bernardon: Well, racing is a lot about the personalities, and you’ve been talking about these drivers. I mean, if you think about Formula One or IndyCar, and certainly this Netflix ‘Drive to Survive’ series, it’s all about the drama between the drivers, the team captains, and the crew. So, for Avicar, now you’ve got these people all over the world, can you describe the nature of the drivers? And it sounds like the nature of the drivers can be quite diverse. So, describe the different types of drivers you think you’re going to have in the series.

[40:19] Cartier Brown: Well, I can only make assumptions for right now about who we think will be in the season. But as of what we’re seeing in our research lab phase and this focus group that we’ve essentially conducted and expanding it through the spring and summer, it’s kind of a wide range of different individuals. Like I was mentioning earlier, some that are amazing e-sports racing drivers, fantastic e-sports drivers, we’re seeing them come to fold and really understanding how to use this technology pretty well. And then we have real car drivers. But then we’re getting people who are doormen, who are teachers, we’re seeing all walks of life, students, and the age range from 16 to 55. Because people love cars and there’s no age bracket for cars. When you love cars, you just love cars.

[41:32] Ed Bernardon: Do you think you’ll have movie stars and music celebrities, former F1 drivers or IndyCar drivers but also, non-celebrities as well? It sounds like it might be a mix of everything.

[41:45] Cartier Brown: Yeah, I think that helps also speak to our audience where having a more diverse who have really high-end sponsors, but also cultural figures and influential figures, I think helps speak to our demographic and something that hasn’t really been done so much with the other leagues. So, obviously, we come from that music and entertainment space as well. So we have relationships, obviously, with a lot of big music stars, some actors as well. But again, it’s for people who believe in what we’re doing. We’re not doing it for clout or for brownie points. We are truly trying to push the needle on what can be done in motorsports. And also, we are truly bringing something different when it comes to sports content and sports programming. So, I don’t know, man. I’m just excited.

[42:49] Ed Bernardon: You come from the music and movie business. You founded a company called Chariot Pictures. The things we’re talking about now is you’re going to have these characters in your racing series. Can you tell us a little bit about what you did what you do? You’re still at Chariot Pictures, what are some of the movies you’ve made? Music videos? What are the ones you’re the most proud of? And how does what you’ve learned there help you in what you’re doing now?

[43:20] Cartier Brown: One of the videos I think we’re proud of, well, we’ve done a few. We’ve worked with almost everyone we wanted to work with. So that’s always a good sign. But one of the videos we’re proud of is the video we did with Drake and Meek Mill, pretty big music artists in the hip-hop entertainment space. We got nominated for that video. It was a great video, awesome production, shot it in LA. We’ve done a ton of videos. And like I said, billions of views globally over a decade, so it’s kind of our wheelhouse. But what’s interesting for us, because we’re dealing with cameras, there are a few things. We specialize in short-form content, which is more kind of the 5 minutes, 20 minutes, 30-minute short video, short film. We’ve almost fine-tuned and understood exactly really good ways to hold attention, what’s considered cool, and what’s considered boring. We’ve learned a lot, I could say, over our years. So I think it works in the sense of motorsports, and I think it works in the sense of sports programming in general, because we’re not looking to do the two-hour-long format races. And I still love them. I still watch the two-three-hour sports events, but shorter format packaged content, things that drive you into “Here’s the competition. Here are these personalities. These guys are going head-to-head. This is live.” And the outcome and the result could be more instantaneous. I think it speaks a little bit to the demographic today than the others.

[45:06] Ed Bernardon: Well, let’s take your nomination for an award for the Drake video, you said. What are the elements that were in that video that make it award-worthy?

[45:17] Cartier Brown: Well, for us, we’ve never taken the traditional “hip hop approach.” And everybody has the stereotypical what a hip-hop music video is or how it’s supposed to come off. So, for us, we’ve always pushed the needle and tried to put artists in a different environment. What we did was, and I implore you to look it up, it’s called ‘Going Bad’. It was one of Drake and Meek’s biggest records. And we had them play chicken, where two Rolls Royces would come head-to-head, and I won’t spoil it, I won’t tell you what happens, but definitely go watch it. It’s called ‘Going Bad’. It’s over 100 million views right now. But it got to teach us a few things. And I think, for one, it’s about working with good people. And we had a really good crew on set. And we had really good energy. And we had a lot of people bring their A-game to the party. 

[46:20] Ed Bernardon: So, you’re taking what someone might expect in a hip hop video, and you’re adding an element of surprise, or at least, “Oh, I’ve never seen it done in this way.” It sounds like a really fun thing to be doing, coming up with ideas. How do you come up with your ideas for hip-hop music videos? Is it you or is it the artists? Who come up with the idea? Like, “Hey, we’re going to do X in this thing because it’s really different and unique.”

[46:49] Cartier Brown: I’m really blessed to work with some talented folks. The director I work with, his name is Kid Art, one of the top music video directors in the game. They call him the next Spike Lee of our generation, so I’m very blessed to work with him. He’s also my younger brother, so there are perks there. 

[47:09] Ed Bernardon: It’s in the Brown blood then, it sounds like. 

[47:10] Cartier Brown: Yes, exactly, the Brown Brothers. Director Kid Art, it’s amazing, check them out. And also, some really talented folks, our partner Andrew Gore, really bright guy. He can make magic. He’s one of those guys, he just knows how to make magic happen.

[47:30] Ed Bernardon: So, in the creative process, the idea is born on your side, on the Chariot Picture side. Does the artist sit back and say, “Ah, I don’t like that. Oh, I like that”? Or is it more, “Wow, this is really great, let’s do it”? Is it somewhere in between? Well, how does that really come off?

[47:49] Cartier Brown: It’s mostly us presenting and creating an idea that we think fits the music and how it can translate in the best way to their audience, and make sure it’s authentic and nothing looks forced, and it’s on point and on message. We specialize in that. For us, we approach them with the ideas fleshed out and most of the time, they love it. Now, there are a few that like to add to it or maybe replace something and do something that’s more sentimental to them that– 

[48:25] Ed Bernardon: Sort of a polish on the top.

[48:27] Cartier Brown: Yeah, exactly.

[48:31] Ed Bernardon: So it sounds like a lot of fun. If you’re having so much fun making music videos, working with all these great artists, and all that, why do you want to now do a remote car racing series?

[48:43] Cartier Brown: I need to have you over for dinner sometime. We got a lot to talk about. We came to a place in the music industry where we’ve worked with almost everybody we wanted to, maybe a couple we didn’t get to work with Jay Z yet or Rihanna. But for the most part, we’ve worked with almost every artist we’ve always wanted to work with. And we’re always searching for that next challenge that could allow us to kind of push it. And our experience in the music video world. It’s been cool because we came off of a little camera, a little 5D camera, grew it to 50-person sets and car [49:25 inaudible] type of explosions and all type of things on set. So we got to really write that full journey and see the experience and we love it. But we’ve learned so much, it would be a disservice to not share what we’ve learned. And some of the people who were doing this with, we’re looking to push the needle, we’re looking to push the needle forward and coming from a content place and excitement and attention and the psychology of something where the stakes can be higher than what it is currently today. These are all things that just float our boat and keep us up.

[50:04] Ed Bernardon: Just doing that something new. So, you look back on this experience you have in the music/movie business. What would you say, maybe the top one or two things that you’ve learned there that’s going to help you in the racing business? One that comes to mind right away is, I’m sure you must have to deal with a lot of egos and things like that. I would imagine that’s probably going to be helpful when you get into this racing business and try and attract all these celebrities.

[48:43] Cartier Brown: Yeah, you might have to help me on that one. You start to learn how to be gentle and firm at the same time. So, there’s somewhat of a dance to it. 

[50:47] Ed Bernardon: Well, let’s talk about the actual event itself and the whole idea of finding these drivers. So, some might be music artists. Oh, in fact, of all the artists you’ve worked with, have any of them shown interest in being a driver?”

[51:00] Cartier Brown: Yeah, we’re going to announce that soon. That’s going to be announced soon. 

[51:05] Ed Bernardon: All right, we’ll keep an eye out for that. You don’t want to announce that here on The Future Car Podcast?

[51:11] Cartier Brown: Next time. But you’ll see that within the next 40-45 days. We want to do something nice and symbolic for that. 

[51:24] Ed Bernardon: So, coming in the summer of ’23, then. 

[51:27] Cartier Brown: Yes.

[51:28] Ed Bernardon: So you line up these drivers. Some could be celebrities, some could be former drivers, and some could be just your average person that’s interested in this. And you’re going to be using this digital twin as a foundation for this training system. And there are different levels, like you’re talking about hand-eye coordination tests, simulation games, getting the actual license, and ultimately getting to the big race. Explain the steps on that so that if there are people out there listening, they’re saying, “Wow, I think I want to do this.” What exactly are the steps they’d have to go through to ultimately become one of the 11?

[52:06] Cartier Brown: So, it first starts with the angel key. And the angel key is something that we are distributing on a very limited exclusive basis. So, we will be almost releasing them like sneakers. These are very high-priced valuable items. They can’t be duplicated. It’s also authenticated on the blockchain. But physical keys that activate and turn on the car thousands of miles away. So, these are special keys, and no key is on earth can do this. So, if you’re lucky enough to get a key, and again, we’re going to be doing key drops. Go to avicar.io, you sign up, you’ll be a part of the newsletters, and you’ll be part of the journey, and you will find out when we actually do key drops and key launches in different parts of the world this summer.

[53:02] Ed Bernardon: And a key drop, by that, you mean that’s going to be an opportunity to become one of the people that can try out? It’s sort of like getting the try out for American Idol? You sign up and you’re going to the “Okay, we’re going to let you come and audition in front of the judges,” that kind of thing?

[53:18] Cartier Brown: Exactly. We’re not giving that chance to everybody. It’s not like every Tom, Dick, and Harry can drive these cars. These are very specialized cars, as we just discussed. So we’re only looking to keep it very privatized, very exclusive. And that’s why we really believe in this private league approach to this. So, if you get a key, you have the ability and opportunity to test drive, test the technology, drive the car, and in hopes of getting scouted. That’s how we’re looking at this right now. 

[53:55] Ed Bernardon: Who’s doing the scouting? 

[53:57] Cartier Brown: It’s a combination of our internal team and the team franchise owners.

[54:01] Ed Bernardon: Oh, so they’re looking for that great talent, great remote driving talent?

[54:07] Cartier Brown: Yeah. And it helps them be a part of that journey. They’re building a team that represents their car and their team. So they want to pick the best drivers and they want to probably pick ones that maybe they relate to, or maybe they don’t relate to, or maybe they just weren’t good on camera, or maybe it’s just a better driver, or maybe they share the same mother’s name, whatever the case is, we will assist them in that process. And they’ll also be team owners who just would like to leave it up to us and have us form the team for them as well, just helping them manage the team. So, we will be offering those types of services as well. But we do envision some that would just want to be involved in every aspect: growing the team, building the asset.

[54:57] Ed Bernardon: So as your candidates right may get through this process, this will all be filmed and presented, I guess online or as part of a series or something like that. Is that the idea?

[55:11] Cartier Brown: We’re going to start dropping content on YouTube, LinkedIn, Instagram, Tik Tok, the whole nine, and really building out kind of what Netflix is doing but more snapshot versions as we continue to build and get to showcase the different personalities and drivers and start getting into elimination rounds and people who are fighting to stay in. So we’re going to create a lot of cool content around this. We work with the best when it comes to that.

[55:50] Ed Bernardon: We’ve been mentioning driver survived several times for Formula One. But it’s that content that’s made that sport even more popular. So the actual race itself, when do you think the first race is going to be? Is it around the corner? When’s it going to happen? What do we have to look forward to and when’s it going to be?

[56:08] Cartier Brown: So the season starts at the end of this year. It starts in December and goes into the first half of 2024. So that’s when you will start to see the elimination process, you will start to see more brackets. And that’s when you will see the true competitive spirit of this technology.

[56:28] Ed Bernardon: So starting early next year, sometime in ’24, we start to see this whole collection of people that want to be drivers, the elimination, till finally sometime next year, I would imagine you’re going to have the race. It sounds like the races are going to be short, they’re not going to be like two-hour events; they will be like a series of short events that eliminates it from whatever it is down to the 11. And then you put all 11 cars on the track I guess, they’re a qualifying and all that kind of thing just like there is in other racing.

[57:00] Cartier Brown: Yes, there are certain things that we’re not trying to reinvent the wheel. So there are certain things and certain fundamentals that have proven successful that we’re borrowing a little bit from. So yes, a lot of things are straightforward, very fundamental. The technology isn’t, experienc isn’t, and the more kind of decentralized sports league, if you will, that I think is something that deserves to be in. And also a diversity approach. I’m very happy about what F1 is doing in that regard. They’ve been making improvements in NASCAR, but there’s certainly a lot to be done. And I think, for us, we can start very organically in that sense where certain overlooked communities and women can participate in not just the sport, but the sports ownership side of things. And I think that’s really important.

[58:01] Ed Bernardon: Well, if you want to be a Formula One driver, you have to start when you’re very, very young. It’s a big investment in time, it’s a big investment in money. This might be an opportunity where you’re not actually gonna be driving a Formula One car, but you’re gonna, like you said, be feeling what it’s like in some ways. And it may be it doesn’t really take that lifelong commitment. So, let’s look a little bit into the future. You’re gonna have your race next year. Where do you think Avicar is going to be 5-10 years from now? I’m waking up, it’s race day. What’s that six-month, nine-month process look like 5-10 years from now?

[58:40] Cartier Brown: That’s a great question. For us, we truly want to be next to an F1, next to a NASCAR, next to a Drone Racing League that’s on NBC. We think we can hang with the best of them. And we think we can create this new professional sports league from the house, which has not been done before, but taken seriously because it’s live and it’s real. And sports competition is slightly different than eSports in that sense. And I think, for us, being in the real world but still having that digital component, it’s a hybrid, so there’s no way you can compartmentalize what we’re building here with Avicar and this A-0 League, which we call it. But we see it at a very high level, we see where the race tracks can do things where we can really push the car to do some exceptional things. Some really, really Daredevil type of limits. Avicar, we look at this A-0 thing as Star Wars IP. It has a universe of itself, but the difference with A-0 is that it’s actually built on real technology that truly exists. 

[01:00:07] Ed Bernardon: That’s the foundation, the fundamental of a remote reality. Do you see it being applied to any other sports?

[01:00:13] Cartier Brown: We’re working on a few things. 

[01:00:15] Ed Bernardon: Can you give us an idea?

[01:00:13] Cartier Brown: We’re working on a few things. But you’ll be happy, you’ll be proud.

[01:00:25] Ed Bernardon: It feels real. But to be able to sit in a race car, even a go-kart is physically demanding. You have to be strong, you have to have endurance. When you’re sitting in an F1 car, your heart is probably beating at 150 to 200 beats per minute, or whatever it is for three hours and it’s 100 degrees Fahrenheit, on and on. Well, this is a little bit different. You don’t have all that. So do you think in the future remote reality will start to make it so. This becomes a very enjoyable sport, people like to do it, people like to watch it. So now the physical attributes that you have to have to participate in something like this is going to be diminished? Or maybe go away? Do you think that’s going to happen?

[01:01:15] Cartier Brown: We never want to replace that feeling of being in an F1 car, or a go-kart for that matter. I love that experience. Obviously, I haven’t been in an F1 car.

[01:01:27] Ed Bernardon: Have you driven a racecar before?

[01:01:29] Cartier Brown: I haven’t driven an F1 car. Ferraris, and stuff like that, and Porsches, but not not anything on the real racetrack that I could say I have had that experience yet. My friends have, but for me, I stick with what I know. A lot of people aren’t going to have that experience. They aren’t going to be able to rent some time out on the racetrack for the weekend and drive their cool sports car, or even be inside an F1 car. But this might be the closest thing to it. And even if it’s a transition for F1 drivers, so be it. But for us, obviously, we understand humans tend to deal with the path of least resistance. Things always like to get easier. That’s kind of where innovation goes. Yes, I think this sport is on the side of comfortability, for sure. I think it’s taking people who take video games even very seriously and almost pro-league pro-status. And I think it helps translate that in a way that hasn’t been done before, that we’re pretty excited about. So we’re not trying to replace anyone, we’re just trying to create our own mark.

[01:02:51] Ed Bernardon: Well, listen, Cartier, thank you so much for joining us here on The Future Car Podcast, giving us an idea of what this new realm, this new reality, this remote reality is all about, and how it applies to racing. To finish things off, we always have our rapid-fire section at the end, a bunch of quick questions, quick answers. Are you ready?

[01:03:10] Cartier Brown: Okay. Let’s do it.

[01:03:11] Ed Bernardon: What’s the first car you ever bought or owned?

[01:03:15] Cartier Brown: Porsche Carrera 2015 Navy.

[01:03:18] Ed Bernardon: What a great car to start with. Tell me your best speeding ticket story. You’ve got to have a speeding ticket story with a car like that.

[01:03:25] Cartier Brown: Yeah, we were on our way to a music video in Queens, I believe. It was Pusha T, the music artist, and it was a short film that Jay Z actually financed. It’s called Darkest Before Dawn. So Jay Z financed our first short film, and we were speeding, rushing out to set, and I got pulled over for speeding. It was a whole thing. There was a suspended license, and I had to go in for two hours. Come back to set later that day after we got everything squared away. It was unbelievable. 

[01:04:04] Ed Bernardon: Were you found guilty? Guilty as charged. 

[01:04:08] Cartier Brown: Yeah. I have it back now. So, all’s good.

[01:04:13] Ed Bernardon: So you won’t be late to set next time. What’s the fastest you’ve ever driven a car on a normal street? You’ve never been on a racetrack, what’s the fastest you’ve ever driven a car on the street?

[01:04:23] Cartier Brown: I want to keep my license, so maybe I shouldn’t say anything. 

[01:04:27] Ed Bernardon: Good answer. Besides the Avicar car, what’s your favorite sports car?

[01:04:33] Cartier Brown: I would say the Ferrari Monza. I love that. That’s one of the most beautiful designed cars ever made, I think, in my opinion. 

[01:04:44] Ed Bernardon: Favorite racecar driver. 

[01:04:06] Cartier Brown: Lewis Hamilton. 

[01:04:47] Ed Bernardon: So, on The Fucutre Car Podcast, we like to talk about what cars are going to be like in the future. And of course, it’ll be autonomous. So they’ll become like living rooms on wheels. And so if you’re taking a five-hour trip from New York City to Boston, say, something like that, what is in your living room on wheels?

[01:05:09] Cartier Brown: I guess I’d have my laptop, I can’t go anywhere without that. Some music, a steering wheel for the Avicar, driving a car inside of a car. 

[01:05:19] Ed Bernardon: Remote control driving in an autonomous car. I love it. 

[01:05:22] Cartier Brown: I’m a minimalist. I’m simple with it.

[01:05:25] Ed Bernardon: What person, living or not, would you want to spend that five-hour car ride with?

[01:05:31] Cartier Brown: Steve Jobs.

[01:05:33] Ed Bernardon: Out of all the music videos or movies you’ve produced, which one stands out the most and why?

[01:05:41] Cartier Brown: I think probably that speeding ticket story, ‘The Darkest Before Dawn,’ when Jay Z financed the production. I mean, it was unbelievable. It’s still kind of like unreal. But yeah, it was like a short $100k quick little thing we did. 

[01:06:03] Ed Bernardon: Does it have a name? 

[01:06:05] Cartier Brown: Yeah, ‘Darkest Before Dawn.’ If you Google that or YouTube it. It’s in Billboard, it discusses what Jay Z. 

[01:06:16] Ed Bernardon: All these celebrities, these movie stars, these musicians, all have reputations, and probably before you start to work with them, you’ve got an idea of what they’re gonna be like. Which one, after you’ve met them and started working with them, surprised you the most and like, “Oh, wow, I didn’t think they were gonna be like that”?

[01:06:34] Cartier Brown: I would say Diddy, actually. He’s a genius. There’s a lot more to him than meets the eye. He knows what’s going on. He’s someone I just learned from. Great guy.

[01:06:46] Ed Bernardon: If you could magically invent one thing, what would it be? Snap your fingers, poof, it’s there. What is it?

[01:06:54] Cartier Brown: ChatGPT 5.

[01:06:58] Ed Bernardon: 4 is not good enough for you, huh? You need one more. If you could uninvent one thing, what would that be?

[01:07:11] Cartier Brown: I’d say nuclear war.

[01:07:15] Ed Bernardon: Finally, last question. Tell us something about yourself that would surprise friends and family, something they do not know. Something that your mom would say, “Oh, my goodness, I didn’t know that.” It’s the hardest you’ve thought about any question, I can tell.

[01:07:33] Cartier Brown: That’s a tough one. I’m just very appreciative of life. And I guess I don’t give that off too much. I don’t tell enough people that, but I do really appreciate life and being around good people that are smart and are passionate about doing something unique and big. I don’t know if that’s too surprising. But it’s definitely something I’m not vocal enough about. You’re just like my therapist right now. Thanks, Ed.

[01:08:06] Ed Bernardon: Hey, Carlie, thank you so much. Good luck with Avicar. Good luck with finding some great drivers. And thank you so much for joining us on The Future Car Podcast.

[01:08:17] Cartier Brown: Much appreciated. Appreciate you guys. Thank you.